Jobfished: How to avoid lying at all costs
The BBC has run an investigation about a company called Madbird which, the BBC claims, recruited people under false pretences.
As part of the investigation, a reporter caught up with the man running the company, Ali Ayad, you can see the full meeting on the link above.
Whatâs interesting about this exchange is that, despite facing serious allegations and robust questioning, Ali doesnât lie once in his answers.
The vast majority of people want to avoid lying. However, that doesnât mean everything we hear from people is truthful. People will use a variety of tactics to mislead or deceive without ever telling a factual untruth.
Ali uses a lot of these techniques here.
Letâs have a look
Reporter: You must want to apologise to all the people that you tricked, that you lied to. They lost money, Ali.
Ali: This is your version of the story, OK.
Reporter: We have you waiting to hear your version of the story, Ali, for months.
Ali: You don't know all the things behind the story. You have heard one version of the story. You need to see two sides of the story. Thereâs always a different side of the story. I'm going to tell you, I'm going to sit down with you and I will tell you but not right now.
Ali is on safe ground here. Heâs certain that she doesnât know all the things behind the story. It doesnât matter if she knows 99.99% of the story. Heâs confident in saying she doesnât know all the things.
âThereâs always a different side of the storyâ is a clique. It sounds good, it sounds convincing. All it means is that anyone can tell a different side to a story, he doesnât say the other side is the truth, he just says a general statement that he hopes is convincing.
By throwing out the âyou donât know all the thingsâ and âthereâs a different side of the storyâ he has avoided dealing with the reporter's first statement âyou must want to apologise to all the people that you trickedâ
Reporter: Unfortunately, Ali, actually I don't believe you. Do you know how badly you affected people with what you did?
Ali: All I know is that we create opportunities for peopleâŚ
Ali doesnât answer the question hereâitâs a yes or no question âyes I doâ, or âno I donâtâ, âknow how people were affectedâ is the only answer that directly addresses the question.
Replying to a different question than youâve been asked, is a classic misleading tactic.
Reporter: You didnât create any opportunities for anyone.
Ali: ⌠opportunities for people to work in the middle of Covid. And we, in a very short period of time, we created a lot of opportunities for people to work. That's what I know.
Ali continues to avoid the question about how badly people were affected. Instead, he focusses on âopportunitiesâ. He is not happy to talk about how people were affected, but heâs happy to discuss the âopportunitiesâ he created.
âOpportunities for people to workâ might sound impressive, but an opportunity is not something solid, itâs a notion or a chance. Not a cast-iron thing that he has created.
Reporter: Are you serious? It was a fake company Ali.
Ali: Itâs not a fake company. What is a company? What is a company? You say a fake company, what is a fake company?
Ali is employing two distraction techniques in one here. The first is answering a question with a question. This allows him to not answer the question and to buy thinking time about which words he can use next.
Next, often people who are being asked sensitive questions will start to very precisely define words, so they can use THEIR definition of the words in question in their defence. This frequently comes out as âwhat do you mean by âŚ?â.
Weâll come to see here that Ali is trying to use a formal definition of a company. He wants âcompanyâ to be defined as an entity that is registered with the authorities as a company.
The reporter means âcompanyâ in a bigger sense, a workplace, an entity that buys and sells things and pays the people who work for it.
Ali will stick with his definition throughout.
Reporter: Ali, your co-founder Dave Stanfield doesnât exist.
Ali: What is a company? What is a company?
Reporter: Whoâs Dave Stanfield?
Yes, it was a company on Companies House
Ali: What is a company?
Ali is intent on not dealing with allegations that the company isnât real and that people who he said worked for the company arenât real either. Heâs still deflecting in a way that he hopes will be useful to him, towards the definition of what a company is.
Quick noteâAli has not told one lie yet.
Reporter: All the work on your website was fake.
Ali: Itâs not nice, this is on a road, you know
Reporter: This is not what I wanted to do.
Ali: Fine, I want to sit down with you and talk but not like this
Again, Ali is talking about things heâs comfortable talking about, not dealing with the allegations
Reporter: Will you say sorry?
Ali: For what?
Reporter: For the fact that you lied. You stole peopleâs identities.
Ali: I did? I did? I did?
Reporter: Yes
Ali: I did? How do you know this?
Reporter: Because we've been investigating Madbird for months.
Ali: And how do you know I did?
Ali is now simply batting back the questions with questions of his own. Note that heâs not denying the allegations, heâs asking questions about them.
Ali never repeats the detail of the allegations put to him. Maybe he finds them distasteful to say, maybe he wants to distance himself from them. Whatever the reason, he canât bring himself to ask a question like âwhy do you say I stole peopleâs indentities?â
Also of note is that one question Ali asks is âhow do you know I did?â. Not âwhy do you think I did?â or âwhat would make you believe I did?â.
Itâs fair to say this is working well for him. The reporter has not had answers to most of what she has asked.
Reporter: Well, who else did it? Are you saying it was someone else's fault?
Ali: This is your story. That's what you do in the news. That's what you do. You just point at something and then you just, you know, point the finger at people.
Ali is back into storytelling mode. However, even here, he isnât denying anything. He isnât saying the reporter is pointing the finger at him, itâs just a form of generic words involving âsomethingâ and âpeopleâ. He really wants to avoid the specifics.
Reporter: Will you say sorry to the people you hurt? Whose lives and time you wasted. Will you say sorry to them?
Ali: If I hurt someone, of course I'm sorry. But I'm telling you, there's another version of the story.
You will have spotted the very qualified apology here. Heâs sorry âIFâ he hurt someone. As soon as heâs said that, heâs moved back to saying there is another version of the story. Again, he doesnât say itâs a more truthful one or a more factual one, just âanother versionâ.
Reporter: Will you tell me one reason that you did this to people? Tell me one reason.
People deserve to know why.
Ali: It was an authentic company. This company had people that worked in it. And we had everything that a company needs. Itâs your version of a story - fake. What is fake? The company is registered, it has an office we have we haveâŚ
Ali doesnât answer the question directly again. He doesnât explain why he did this. Instead, he goes back to where he is comfortable, talking about what constitutes a company.
Reporter: You donât have an office, where is your office?
Ali: Itâs a digital company. Itâs a digital company.
You hopefully have noticed, the question was âwhereâ and the answer doesnât match that.
Reporter: So you donât have an office?
Ali: We have an office, but you don't really have to have computers and stuff right. Itâs a digital company.
Reporter: So, whereâs your office? Whereâs your office?
Ali: It was registered in (BLEEP) street.
Here, Ali gives away his strategy. He could have said, âmy office is on (name) streetâ. Instead, he shows all he cares about is the fact it was a legally documented company by saying âit was registered in (name) streetâ
Reporter: That was your house?
We genuinely want to hear your side of the story
Ali: Well, give me a chance.
Conclusion
Despite a lot of pressure from the reporter, who had numerous facts to throw at him, Ali didnât lie once in the exchange. Instead, he tried to control the conversation so that it moved onto the ground he was comfortable with.
He didnât answer some questions and wanted to narrow others down in very technical ways, but not once did he put himself in the difficult position of having to tell a lie which could be very costly to him.
Next time youâre in a difficult conversation with someone, check if theyâre acting like Ali.
The signs that someone is trying to deceive or mislead you are
- Not directly answering the question they are asked
- Trying to narrow down definitions, âwhat do you mean byâŚ?â
- Answering questions with other questions
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